The Investing Tool You Need - Episode 22

Fed up with a lack of tools to make keeping up with his portfolio easier, Ulrich started Ziggma. Ziggma is designed to help investors stay in control of their portfolios and on track to reach investment objectives.When changes are due to be made, Ziggma helps investors make smart choices with the goal to maintain a well-diversified portfolio.

About Our Guest: Ulrich in an investor by conviction. He loves the fact that the stock market allows him to own shares in great companies, which in turn create value for him. He has invested ever since starting his university education at Georgia Southern University in Statesboro where he earned an economics degree. After getting a Masters degree at Georgia State University he moved to France with his wife, where he started a career as a financial analyst at Cohen & Company. He then went on the create Ziggma and continues on his mission to make investing easier.

Check out Ziggma and use coupon code: FI23 for 50% for the first 3 months

Transcript

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What's up? What's up? My financially intentional people, you guys are in for a treat because both you and I are going to be learning today because we have a special guest here. Uli from Ziggma, is going to break down a investing platform that he has created to make investing simpler for people like me for that like to set it and forget it. And don't like to think too much about my investment decisions, but know that once I have made that decision that it's gonna benefit me in the long run. And that, that I have safeguards around my investments. So thank you so much Uli, for joining us. I really appreciate you being here. And looking forward to diving into this conversation that I know will be a value add to people who are. Just like me, newer to the investing world, but really want to utilize tools that can help them make really good investment decisions. So welcome. investment decisions. So you Naima. Nice. Thank you for having. having. Of course. Of course. So let's start off kind of with like your background, because I'm always interested in what got people interested in, like the money space and what introduced you into this world of investment and then you to go beyond and create this really robust tool with over 22,000 users. So how did you get started investing? did you get started investing? smiling it's actually a funny story. So I was doing military service in in Germany, back in Germany. And back at the time there was no mobile phones, no tablets, so I was very, very bored. And luckily some guy had a subscription to a newspaper, so I would read the newspapers, sports and I was like, what do I need read next? You know, just kept on reading. And I ended up, you know, reading last, you know, economics and at the time the stock market was going up. So it, you know, it was kind of interesting. Every time it was going up, it was late, late. Nineties. And so I realized, you know, there are, you know, you can actually make money by owning shares in good companies. And that kind of stuck, you know, there are good ch there are good companies out there for whatever you, you know, measuring stick. You take, whether it's return or impact or good stewardship. And the stock market allows you to own a share in those companies. And that's really what I like about investing. It's as simple as. as. Yeah, I like that's very interesting is that you were just like, well, I needed something to read, so I might as well read about the stock market. So that's cool. But you were in Germany at that time and Germany is the military compulsory for for people for of a certain age. for people Not anymore. So but I, I got stuck. I, it was, it was, it was abolished after I left. But it was when Yeah. It was, I had to give away 10 months of my life. 10 months. Well, it was under a year. It's not too bad, but, so you were in the military, in Germany. Was that before or after you went to school in the States? you went to No, I was already promised a tennis scholarship in the United States. I was just sitting there and wanted to go off and you know, I had to postpone by, you know, two semesters, unfortunately, which was really when you're like 19 years old that you just wanna go off to college. And I had to sit there in an office and do nothing. So that was kind of tough, but I got over it. it. Right. So Right. So, did you actually start, like personally investing? like personally investing? time, so, you know, my grandmother gave me, you know, a few thousand euros in, in Germany at the time, and I invested that. And without really knowing what I was doing, I kind of doubled it because the stock market was just going crazy. It was not at all my skill or anything. And and that was really helpful for, for college, which, which followed right after. So I got off the good start. That was obviously that OB obviously gave me a favorable view on, on investing. And then in college when I finally figured out what I wanted to do, I, I started, I got an economics degree. So, you know, I sort of, you know, got still that, you know, view. view. You know, how, how the economy works and, you know, there are companies that, you know, create value forced for the stakeholders. So that sort of, you know, kept on encouraging me and, and investing. I like that. But you know, oftentimes economic degrees, finance degrees, all of those things don't necessarily translate over into your personal finances. Like, but I like that you took that. Okay. You used that as an opportunity to explore companies that were actually doing well and then that in turn kind of turn kind Made you make decisions around your, your investments. And so I just wanna emphasize that because it's not because you had an economics degree. Cause I know a lot of people who have finance degrees, economic degrees, and their personal finances and investment portfolios are like nothing. Right? But you were able to turn that degree into something that was. That helped you with your personal finances and I like that you are investing at 18 and kudos to grandma for and kudos giving you that money because I mean, like a lot of us would be blessed to have a couple, couple thousand euros couple thousand to invest, but like to invest, it was fortunate at the time that you got into the market that you could kind of just plug it in anywhere and you saw those good returns which is. Which is not is not that common. But yeah, it was definitely a sign of the times. it was definitely Yeah. Let me add to that. It's very important that I went off to college late 99, so just before the internet bubble, you know, crash. And so, you know, I, I, I, I was able to take, you know, ride some of the way up and then I get out because I needed the money, frankly, for paying for. For, you know, room and, and, and food in, in college. So I, I sold all my investments and I made a little bit of a gain and it was, it was luck. A lot of pure luck. But that doesn't take away from the fact that, you know, there are many great companies and brands out there that. That we encounter every single day, right? You know, whether it's, you know, whether you like Starbucks or whether you like, you know, the Olive Garden or all those, a lot of those companies are publicly traded. So if you like the brands, if you, if you like what they're doing, chances are, you know, they're gonna create value for their shareholders over time. Yeah, actually, that's how I teach my kids about investing is that, you know, at a very early age, you're able to recognize and start identifying with brands that they really like and things that they really like. And so to teach them to not just be consumers of those things. I say, well, if you really like it, then you gotta put some money behind it. Like you have to be a owner in this company. And so that's, I, I, you know, give them a certain amount of money. A month and they get to pick whatever they wanna buy stocks in and that, and it is just a little bit of money. It's not like they're, they have their college fund and then they have their retirement fund. But this teaches them, number one, how to invest, how to pick companies that you really like and actually how to track those companies to see like it might be something or something to you, but is it worth something to everybody? And kind of learning those lessons and my kids are four and eight, so just making it very age specific. But yeah, I like the way that you said that like if there is our companies that you really, really like and you support, then it kind of makes sense that you're investing in those companies. So you exited out of your positions. In like right at the perfect time, not five, not because you were time in the market, but just because you needed that money to fund your education. But what. Caused you later in life to create Zig gma, and I'll have you explain what Zig Zig GMA is, but what took you to that point? Was it something that you have been working on? Is it something that like was a passion project for you while you did other things in economics? Or was it just your main focus after you came outta school? focus after you came outta No I was just, I just kept, you know, on investing you know, with a very basic or very basic approach that I was ex describing. And you know, I like, you know, the fact that technology. You know, helps you with so many things in life, make so many, so many things either easier, whether it's, you know, banking or whether it's, you know, the fact that you have your phone, your, your camera in your phone, which for the, for younger people is very normal. But but you know, I still had to carry both, I guess. So I always got fed up with the fact that the brokers didn't make, you know, Some needs tools that help me track my portfolio better. And, you know, we were talking about this before, you know, tracking, diversification. There's, unless I have to check my, unless I check my account every single day, I w I won't know what happens, how my portfolio moves around. Right? And eventually I get so fed up that I, you know teamed up with a couple of people and said, you know, I, I think there is a, you know, there's a need for this in the market and and this, this sort of service is not out there. Why don't, can we get, you know, team up and, and build this? And and so we did. Yeah. So I like what you were saying about like brokers not being incentivized to kind of help you make better investment decisions. They're more incentivized to, you know, you trading your positions because that's how they generate revenue in the backend. So you created this tool that actually filled like this gap in actually. Knowledge based. I was like, okay, like what am I really investing in? Like how much, how many positions do I have and is it, is it still aligned with my goals? All those things. And I was telling you that me very basic investor, and I think we're around the same age cuz we went to college around the same time, but. time, I just, I didn't start investing when I was 18. I started investing in my late thirties and because honestly I was intimidated by investing. I thought investing was like this, like PhD level knowledge base where you had to like be on the floor like a stock trader and understand the movement in the markets. But then when I got introduced to. Index funds and you know, simple path to wealth and just kind of like investing that way. I was like, oh, it does not have to be hard. It's actually pretty simple and it's a way that I can understand. But the thing is, is that. This tool can also help me in my basicness, because while I wanna seek diversification, I can get that through index funds. Sometimes index funds can be heavily concentrated in certain companies right now, say for example, I didn't want to invest in Tesla and I love playing with Tesla cuz I have a Tesla and I have Tesla, everything. So obviously I'm heavily invested in Tesla, but say I'm like not feeling Elon Musk and I'm like, I don't want my positions in this company to go over a certain point. Your tool, your enigma helps identify if you're overinvested in a certain area, right? in a certain Yeah, exactly. So what Ziggma is about, is about, it's about making investing easier, making portfolio management easier. So, for example, you can pull together several brokerage accounts and get all those brokerage accounts in, in one single view. We get a lot of users that, you know, connect the 401k and then brokerage account and maybe another one that they opened when Robinhood was, you know you know, the big, you know, fashion and and now they can see all of their, all of their accounts in, in one single view. And so sometimes they may have even the same stocks. In different portfolios and unless they take out a penant or, or a calculator and, and then add them up, you know, they don't necessarily know how much of, of, in they have in total. So we, we show you that in a, in a, in a pie chart. Very basic. But we, what we also do is, and this is because, you know this is where we leverage technology. We let you set a limit in terms of diversification. How much of your total portfolio, Tesla, or whatever it. You want to tolerate in terms of maximum exposure. So you take a sliding scale, you, you, you, you drop it at 10 or 15% and then you set that alert at that level and you don't have to worry about it anymore because when Tesla hits 15% of your total portfolio, we will send you an email and then you can take action. Right? We're not in the business of, of making recommendations. So we are thinking of ourselves as an enabler. You know, you, you take your, your own decisions. You, you, maybe you, you increase your tolerance because you're still feeling, you know, that Elon has the magic. Or you say, well, I'm gonna take some off the table and, you know, and selling some Tesla. So it's down to like 10 or 12% of my portfolio and and move. So I just wanna clarify, this is not brokers, this is not financial. They are not financial advisors. They're simply a platform that gives you the education and knowledge base to make informed decisions around your investing that was missing, that fill in a gap from brokerages that aren't incentivized to do so. to do So typically the people who use AIG gma, like what is their biggest like value add from using the platform? add from using the Yeah, it's what I mentioned earlier. It's, it's, it's pulling several brokerage accounts together and seeing them as one. That's the first you know, we, it's not something we had anticipated that it would You know, please so much. You know, they have, they even connect, you know, the wi their spouses 401k, so they get really the full picture on, on investments and that, yeah, that's the number one thing. And then they set smart alerts from there and they, they get all the transactions as one portfolio and and that's, that's something that apparently has been missing in. in the market. Does ZMA track fees being charged for the investments? For the No, but we definitely want to. I think that's important too. A lot of times people don't understand the fees associated and sometimes like they can pick an e t F that's less expensive within certain brokerages. Like for example, fidelity has Like a total stock market index fund. But if you go to Fidelity and you buy a Vanguard fund, you're gonna have a fee associated with it. And a lot of people don't know that. So I was just wondering if that, if you guys had that feature, cause I think that would be a bomb feature, but not trying to make you do extra work. trying to No, no, no, no worries. We already have that actually, if you, if you screen for ETFs, so we have an ETF screener and you can screen by expense ratio, which is the cost of the etf. So there you can actually, again, it's sliding scales. So you just take the slider to whatever your maximum tolerance is for the fee and release, and then you get all the ATFs that cost less. See, that's an excellent tool, so, When it comes to like, ETFs. So, you know, people think that they're diversifying their ETFs when sometimes they're kind of kind of just like duplicating investments. Does Ziggma break down like the individual funds in D ETFs? Like, you know, you're gonna have your Apples, your Teslas, your Googles, all of those things are kind of gonna be the top companies in, like if you do total stock market index or s and p 500. Like, a lot of times people don't understand, like you're just kind of buying the same thing over and over again. Does, does Ziggma tell you like, you know, you're kind of heavily invested in these areas, you might think of further diversifying. think of further diversifying. What we do is we break down ETF portfolios by asset. Okay. So you can see how many et much of your portfolio is in stock ETFs, how much of your portfolio is in bond ETFs or commodities ETFs or, or such, such thing. But we're working on, or it's on a roadmap to actually do the, I guess the, the, the x-ray kind of function that you're describing. But yeah, for that we need we need to do some. But I think the platform is phenomenal. And what, let's talk about like the name, like what exactly does Ziggma mean? does Ziggma Yeah, it's a little bit of a, a geeky background because my, the initial idea was to help investors manage their risk. Right. Because, you know, institutional investors or professional investors, that's like one of the things they think about all time is, you know, risk portfolio, risk diversification, correlation, things like that. So, you know, that was our initial sort of approach. And Ziggma, the, the, the letter, Greek letter Ziggma is the parameter that describes portfolio risk in, in, in financial theory. And very quickly we realized that yeah, that's not really something that that's gonna, you know, address a big market and help you know, a lot of people. So we, we sort of built it out and. In terms of like, and, and, and build like a, a more holistic approach where you can track individual companies where, where you can set this module, as I mentioned where you can aggregate accounts and where you can even do stock research. So you know, we have a stock screener. We have a whole bunch of, you know, fundamental information and we also score that's also a feature. You asked me what's the most popular feature. One of the second most popular feature is. Our stock scores. So what we do is we score stocks against each other in a given industry, and the very basic rationale is that, You know, you wanna own the best in an industry, right? You don't want to own, you know, the 10th best or the 20th best. You want to own one of the best companies in that industry. That's what's gonna, that's the one who's gonna create value over the long term. So we score those companies on a, on a scale of zero to 100. So you, you connect your bank, you, you connect your brokerage account, you will see those stock. That's in the free plan even. And then, you know, you see a stock that has a score of 40. So you click on that stock and you immediately see what are the, you know, the higher ranking stocks in that industry. And you, you can take it from there. So that's the second most popular feature. And you can see from risk, we actually went quite a, quite, quite some ways. ways. It's just the platform just seems really robust. And like I told you before, I'm like a super simple investor, but I feel like even, like for me, it's a value add because I get to see all my, my portfolios like accumulated in one. Can I, can you add five 20 nines? Can I, can you add five 20 Yeah, I think so. If, if, if Plaid, our aggregation provider supports Yeah, like if it's a Vanguard account, it'll all just transfer through us, so it's just plaid. Okay. So That makes sense. That makes No, I mean, and, and look, I mean, you said to me, you know, it, it may be overwhelming actually. We wanted to achieve, we, we, I think we are doing quite the opposite because with the Ziggma stock score, you don't have to wonder which sort of financial KPIs you have to crunch because we crunched them. them. So we take revenue growth, you know, earnings growth, we take profitability, we take variation measures 40 in total. We look at time series data and mathematically you know, we crunch all these numbers. And mathematically one company will, you know you get a ranking of companies because you have so many parameters that automatically there is, there is a ranking. So, We all, we do all that work for you. So you look at the scores and if you stick with the higher scores, you automatically have, you know, you're automatically sticking with the, the better companies in, in that industry. industry. Yeah, and I was telling you, I feel like it goes hand in hand with value-based investing. And I know you have a climate change initiative investing portion in there as well. But for people who are super concerned about value-based investing, it gives you a mechanism to kind of filter out those companies that you wanna avoid in your portfolio as. your portfolio Yeah, it was very important to us to look beyond I guess the smoke screens. So what we did is we, we are buying from a provider greenhouse gas emissions data published and reported by US companies. And we are crunching those numbers again. You know, we are, you know, data geeks, so we look at actual track record of companies rather than, you know, their lofty promises of, you know, cutting emissions, you know by x percent. By 2030. We, we actually look at what they have done. And it's funny because you get a whole different picture of of, of what companies have done and, and they're also, it's, it's very important. I mean, thanks for, for bringing that up. But for us it's very important to look at what companies are actually doing rather than, you know, be deviling. Them for being in a particular industry, right? I mean, we are not black and white, so we're not saying all fossil fuel companies are bad. We're saying the ones that don't do anything, they are bad. Right? So, you know, go invest in fossil fuel companies where they tie executive pay to reducing climate ga, climate climate's emission sorry, greenhouse gas emissions. You know, you and, and the ones that show that they are managing to. Greenhouse gas emissions down. You know, I think there is nothing bad in that. And, and while we're at it, you know when there is, you know, shareholder votes on climate action at those companies and you own shares in those companies, you know, please go and vote so that they hear your voice, right? I mean, every voice counts. Yes. I can definitely say I don't take advantage of those votes. Again, it's just something that is like, Overwhelming a little bit. For me, when you get those statements and you're trying to look through and you get the proxy votes and it's just like, I don't even know what this is, but it's a way to have your voice be heard, and I, and I thank you for bringing that up because it's super important that people understand. that people like how like, like you're not only a owner of the company, like you have a voice in the way that the company is ran, and it's a way to, you know, create change and it's a way to stop some of the things that you feel like are wrong with these companies. And so I really appreciate you bringing that up because that is a way that we can impact society by our dollars because. We are shareholders, so yeah. Thank you. And I'm gonna start doing that I'm gonna Look, I mean I could talk. I mean, don't get me started. I, I'm super passionate about that. I mean, there are so many topics, right? And that's really where you can have impact. And you know, if you, you know, obviously it's, it's already a good start if you shift your company into e s G funds, but, you know, sometimes, you know, they're. What they are made out to be. But when you own shares and you know, there are shareholder resolutions on, you know, fair pay on gender equality equality in general corporate governance or climate change, you know, then it's very important that all of those, all of us shareholders actually wrote our shares. And I understand that it's very hard to. Keep up with that and track that, and I can give you a scoop that we are working on that um, to make that easier and and cover the, you know, you know, deliver the information to those shareholders because when you connect your brokerage account, we can form you. We know that you own those shares. So we can inform you when there is a relevant shareholder resolution because look me, as me as well, I'm very mindful of this topic, but as you say, you know, the brokers don't really, it's not really their business to to provide that information. So, like a lot of times I'm not even aware that there is a shareholder re resolution on, on, on, on executive pay or something like that at, at a company where I think that the guy is actually overpaid and that I wanna, I would wanna vote against his pay package, right? So yeah, so we're working on that that. Yeah, I think it like, Yeah, I like we always look at ways in which we can influence change and I wouldn't necessarily say invest in a company that you don't believe in. Say that you can influence a change. But there are some companies that, you know, we do typically support that we feel like can be run more efficiently or can be, you know, have more. Equity as far as pay or be doing better with the climate. So I really feel like with the environment, so I really feel like it's a way to like really, really affect change. And a lot of people always oftentimes feel helpless. Like, what can one person do well? If you have investments, you can actually do a lot, like your voice actually matters, especially depending on how many shares you So, yeah, I think, I think that's great. I, I'm glad that you're passionate about it and I'm glad that you actually are. You have that Ava, or you're working on that, or is that live available right now on the platform? No, we're working on that. So only only 11% of investors actually voter their shares. So our, yeah, we wanna, you know, help to change that and, and, Yeah. And, and bring it up. And so yeah, so we're looking at covering, you know, shareholder resolutions. It's, it's not, it's not a very difficult feature to build and, and deliver the, that information out to shareholders who are inclined to vote the shares. Yeah, I love that. Talk to us about like, how can people access Ziggma? First of all, I just wanna applaud you for the incredible growth that you've had on this platform. First of all, you've only been around for less than a year, and you have like so many thousands of users and the assets that you guys can can see are like in the billions. So I'm just. Super impressed by that. But how can your average everyday, you know, nurse, investor like me, investor Access the platform and like I, I know it's simple to access, but can you walk us through like the process and then the different tiers in the of services that you have? Of services Yeah, for sure. I mean, like you said, you know, signing up is very easy. There is, you just have to enter a name. You can even make up a name and enter email address and so that you can send you the alerts for your, if you pick, if you end, you know, if you enter smart alerts or set up smart alerts. And I guess the first step to do is, I mean there are many ways to get started, but the first step to do is to link your brokerage account really so that you can benefit from tools that you are very likely not getting from your broker to manage your portfolio over time. So we're not looking to get you to trade, we're looking, you know, to help you manage your portfolio better over time. So what does that mean? It means to help you stay diversified, to help you, you know. Stay in control of how your companies are doing. I, I mentioned the Ziggma scores, so you can mention, you can watch that if a company that was originally an 80 now becomes a 40, you know, you know, a few months later, then you may wanna look into that and, and look for better alternatives. It's, it's, it's very, very simple. So, so you can monitor your portfolio better and you can even, and you can optimize your portfolio better because you know you can switch out that company. That gets a score of 40 with a score of 80. And you can also use the screener to, you know, easily screen for the best companies. You can usually actually the, the Ziggma score in the screener itself. So you can score, you can, there are sub-score, so you can screen by growth score or valuation score depending on what kind of investor you are. And if you don't wanna link your brokerage account, you can set up virtual portfolios or watch lists. And we even have a section where we have model portfolios. So we, we take a theme, you know, for example, low volatility, high Ziggma score, and you can check out that model portfolio. Which is in a regular portfolio view, you can look at what is in there and you can look at what the performance has been for that portfolio and and draw inspiration. So those are some of the, the, you know, the principle access of, of how you can use Cigna. So I know that a lot of these resources are available for free, but you do have a pro plan or a paid tier. What's the difference in what you can access with your paid what you can access with your With the paid plan, you can set the smart alerts. You can have full access to the Ziggma stock scores, so you. you. On your portfolio, you get the Ziggma stock scores. But if you wanna, you know, see, you know, what is, what, which companies are doing better, that is on the, on the, on the page tier. And you get, you get in the, in the, in the screener, you get to save your screeners, for example. Or you get to use, you know, pre preset screeners, things like that. You also get to use the portfolio stimula. It's a, it's also a very important tool because you, you can actually see what will happen to your portfolio when you. When you wanna do a trade. So, so it's, it's, so you simulate your portfolio, what happens to my, my largest position, what happens to my portfolio quality, things like that. So, so those are the, those are the premium features. They are available, if you take a monthly plan, it's nine 90 per month. And if you sign up for a year, it's, it drops to seven 50 a month equivalent. And there's only one premium. Wow, that's a lot of access to tools for very reasonable amount of money. But in within Zig GMA, you can view all these things, but like to actually do the transaction, you still have to go through your brokerage to do it right. You can't execute the transaction through Ziggma, right? the transaction through For now. It's also something that, that that is about to change hopefully, but for now, yes. Wow, that's incredible that it's like everything I like think of, you're like, oh yeah, either I have it or I we're about to do it anyway. So I love it. I love it. Like I said, it seems super robust but also in a way that simplifies it for investors like me that don't like to think too much about my investments, but I think that this is an incredible tool that gives you the guidance that you need. Cuz oftentimes people, you know, have that analysis paralysis that, and they kind of get stuck and they're just like, I'd rather just not invest instead of not investing, just make very informed decisions. And I could see people, like for example can you break down for me Uli, like how you would. If you have like large index fund positions, but you know that within the index funds, like there's a company that you don't like, like you can't necessarily parse out companies out of an index fund. Right. So that index fund is set. How would you recommend, if you are in a strong position in an index fund, how would you recommend kind of more diversifying in those areas that have that very high Ziggma score? that very high Ziggma Yeah, but if the Ziggma score, you can only use if you invest in directly in companies. So we're not at a point where you can, where you, where you can use a Ziggma score for an etf. I think it's definitely a very, very cool idea, and but, but with an etf, you'll see the individual com, like you know, the individual companies that are in there, right? Typically. Get to see the top 10 holdings. But you know, in a lot of, in a lot of those, you know, you have, you know, hundreds of companies. So it has a little bit of over of Overkill. So usually, you know, the limit is 10 companies and. Also, if you go to iShares, they usually show you just the top 10 companies. And then, you know, just like, yeah, there's, there's many more. And and like you said, they're always, they're al they're always very broad. So if you really wanna, I'm, I'm inclined to say if you really wanna, you know, own what you're comfortable with, then you should go to individual stocks. There are fractional shares are available now as well on on many brokers, which is a great invention. So, so you can access pretty much any company that you think is great for your portfolio and, and do it yourself. Yeah, so it would be like creating a balance of index funds. But you could also just kind of, I mean, like what a mutual fund is just like a, a portfolio of companies that you know that whoever the mutual fund manager believes are good companies and they just collaborate. They just put 'em together in a bundle so you can kind of create your. Semi ET TF based on whatever your values are believed for your Zig GMA score and all of those kind of things. And so, like I said, it kind of takes a lot of that intimidating factor out of investing. Like, how do I even know what I'm investing in? What does this actually mean? What do they actually represent? What do they value? Because Zig GMA is giving you the educational tools for you to actually understand and empower you to make better investing and empower you to make better Yeah. Yeah. Look, I mean, exactly. That's a very great summary. I think et ETF investing is, is a, is a very, is a great tool, but you know, to your question, if you wanna make sure that what you own is aligned with your values and your approach, then you know, the, the. Approach of actually owning the companies is, is maybe best. for Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. So just giving people like a little bit of perspective, if they kind of think like me and kind of just like, well, how do I navigate this? I think, I think it's a great way to go about like researching, like how you can change and, and diversify your portfolio. So I really appreciate that. But. U it has been amazing. You have dropped a lot of gems and a lot of knowledge and really just opened up my eyes to the different ways to approach investing, because obviously I've just kind of been on the, you know, set it and forget it. But when it comes to really understanding how to make decisions that are based on your values, And based on, you know, the companies that are actually doing well. I mean, obviously you really want your, your, at the end of the day, you wanna be making money off of your investments. So in understanding like what companies are, you know, doing well over time, I really feel like you're empowering people to not only just make. Better investments decisions overall, but investments decisions that actually feel good. So I appreciate that you put this platform together and that you came on the podcast to share it with us because we can never. Stop having these conversations because I just feel like you know, financial education is something that needs to be kind of reiterated over and over again, and you kind of just need to see what's possible and you've definitely expanded what's possible for me. So I appreciate you, but I just wanna give you an opportunity to, again just let our listeners know how they can access Ziggma and where they can reach out and find you if they have questions. reach out and find you if they have Yeah, well you can always drop an email ue@ziggma.com and, you know, sign up to Ziggma. You, we are about owning, you know, great portfolios that get you to where you wanna get in terms of investment objectives. And don't be, don't be overwhelmed by investing, you know investing great companies. You see them every day around you. You like their product, you like what you're doing. You like the ceo, you like the leadership. You know, chances are it's a good company. Then, you know, go and log onto Ziggma, check out the Ziggma score. If that is, you know, decently high as well, then you probably, you know, there's probably a good argument to own shares in those, in those companies. And and that gets you started with investing and you know, you will create, those companies will create value for you over time. So I think there is yeah, I think it's, it's, it's just, it just makes. sense. It does, it just makes sense to me too. And I'll have a link in the show notes on how to access Ziggma. So oh, are, do you have any special offers for our listeners, ULI? for our Yes. I just happened to have one. If you, if you enter the coupon code FI23. So f i for financially intentional 23, then you get 50% off for the first three months on the premium plan. Whoa. Ooh, I love that. I appreciate that and I'm gonna have to use that code and check it out. But again, thank you so much u for joining us. This has been so great. I've learned so much, and I just appreciate you sharing your knowledge sharing your Thank you, Nasima. Thank you for having me. It's been, it's been a pleasure.